President Donald Trump complained that an interviewer for ABC News wasn’t “being very nice” when he refused to back up the president’s claims about a Maryland dad who was mistakenly deported.
During an interview Tuesday with Terry Moran to mark the first 100 days of his second term as president, Trump insisted that Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador’s brutal CECOT mega-prison on March 15, had “MS-13” tattooed across his knuckles.
“There’s a dispute about that,” Moran said, trying to move on to the next topic.
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“Wait a minute. Wait a minute,” Trump objected. “He had ‘MS-13’ on his knuckles, tattooed.”
“He had some tattoos that are interpreted that way,” Moran clarified. “But let’s move on.”
Earlier this month, Trump posted a photo on social media of Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s hand showing four tattoos—a marijuana leaf, smiley face, cross, and skull. In the picture, the numbers and letters “M-S-1-3” were digitally added above each tattoo to argue that the symbols were a code to signify gang membership.
Experts, however, have said the tattoos are not associated with Mara Salvatrucha, a criminal gang that originated among Salvadoran immigrants in Los Angeles in the 1980s. The gang spread to Central America when its members were deported after the Salvadoran civil war ended in the early 1990s.
Criminal justice experts told CBS News that members have been known to tattoo the gang’s colloquial name “MS-13” on their bodies, along with images of devil horns. But a community activist who had worked with gang members for more than 25 years said he had never seen a gang member with Abrego Garcia’s knuckle tattoos.
A former gang member turned professor told CBS he had consulted current gang members, and even they didn’t think the tattoos stood for MS-13.
“Wait a minute. Terry. Terry, Terry,” Trump said during Tuesday’s interview, refusing to move on.
“He did not have the letter ‘M-S-1-3,’” Moran said.
“It says ‘M-S-1-3,’” Trump insisted.
“That was Photoshopped,” Moran said.
When Trump first shared the photo on April 19, internet sleuths argued it was misleading because Trump did not make it clear that the image had been digitally altered to include the alleged gang “context.”
The president’s online defenders countered that it was obvious the letters and numbers had been added to illustrate the president’s claims. Trump’s exchange with Moran, however, made it seem like Trump believed the letters and numbers were part of the original tattoo.
“That was Photoshopped? Terry you can’t do that,” Trump told Moran.
“Hey, they’re giving you the big break of a lifetime,” he continued. “You’re doing the interview. I picked you because—frankly I never heard of you but that’s OK. I picked you but you’re not being very nice. He had ‘MS-13’ tattooed—”
“We’ll agree to disagree. I want to move on to something else,” Moran said.
“Terry. Terry. Do you want me to show you the picture?” Trump said.
Moran said he’d seen it, and repeated again that Abrego Garcia only had tattoos that can be “interpreted” as evidence of gang membership. He tried to turn the topic of conversation to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but Trump wasn’t having it.
The administration has tried to justify deporting Abrego Garcia, a migrant from El Salvador whom an immigration judge had granted a form of legal protection called a “withholding of removal order,” by saying he’s a “terrorist” and a member of the notorious MS-13 gang.
The 29-year-old is married to a U.S. citizen and was working full-time as a sheet metal apprentice when he was suddenly detained and deported without being allowed to appear before a judge.
He doesn’t have a criminal record, and no court has found him to be a member of a gang. Instead, Trump officials have offered up tenuous evidence of Abrego Garcia’s MS-13 “membership,” including the tattoos.
“No, no. Terry. Terry,” Trump insisted. “No, no. No, no. He had ‘M-S’ as clear as you can be, not ‘interpreted.’ This is why people no longer believe the news, because—”
At that point Moran—who had responded to Trump’s earlier digs with a smile—sighed the kind of deep sigh that parents of toddlers know well.
He pointed out that the word “MS-13” doesn’t appear in any of the photos of Abrego Garcia that have been taken since he was deported to El Salvador.
“Terry!” Trump interjected.
“Ukraine, sir,” Moran practically begged.
“He’s got ‘MS-13’ on his knuckles, okay?” Trump said. “You’re just such a disservice. Why don’t you just say, ‘Yes he does’ and go on to something else?”
“It’s contested,” Moran replied. “Ukraine.”
